Curse

Kakumei · Aug 15, 2006, 02:25 PM // 14:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by WasAGuest

wave after wave of the exact same mob group build up (that seems like they sat in a town saying "glf X");

Hahaha like Prophecies wasn't guilty of that at all. Hi, Ruins of Surmia, I don't want to kill a million Devourers in a row. What, I don't have to? Oh, now I have to kill a million Charr. Wonderful!

RinkXing · Aug 15, 2006, 02:34 PM // 14:34

In Prophecies I found Ascalon, The Northern Shiverpeaks and early parts of Kryta to be slightly tidious with my Xth character (I honestly have no clue how many time I have rerolled half of my characters), but pretty much after that, I really start having a load of fun.

Factions, I have completed it with about 4 characters at least and I haven't really gotten bored, but I wouldn't mind either way, I definately don't agree that people should run their first characters, and I have seen this happening, THAT ruins the game.

Personally myself, I think players should be able to travel anywhere, however aren't allowed to access certain missions if they haven't completed the previous, but as I said, either way I'll be fine with it.

Valkyrian · Aug 15, 2006, 02:50 PM // 14:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruby Lightheart

Like that you cant get the 1.5 or 15k armor until you reach level 20?

I think that is a great idea. I have seen some people call 15k armor "Ascended Armor". Why not have the 1.5k armor have a requirement of being lvl 20 and 15k armor have a requirement of being ascended. Problem "somewhat" solved IMO... I do have a 55 monk but I DO NOT pwr lvl people. I think it is a waste of my time and a pitty to them for not experiencing the fun of doing things yourself instead of taking the easy way out. So the power leveling issue would have to be solved as well, like patching the XP to have only those involved in battle get the it and have the aggro of enemies go for lower lvl's/lower hp (which they do sometimes IMO)

So in a nut shell, I say: Keep the dumb runners and bots, take away the gates, make lvl requirements AND mission requirements to get better armor, and patch the leveling system to not allow us 55 monks to get a lvl 2 to 20.

Mordakai · Aug 15, 2006, 02:59 PM // 14:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valkyrian

I think that is a great idea. I have seen some people call 15k armor "Ascended Armor". Why not have the 1.5k armor have a requirement of being lvl 20 and 15k armor have a requirement of being ascended.

Not really an issue in Factions. You're level 20 pretty soon. And the Ascension is the second quest on mainland Cantha.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valkyrian

So in a nut shell, I say: Keep the dumb runners and bots, take away the gates, make lvl requirements AND mission requirements to get better armor, and patch the leveling system to not allow us 55 monks to get a lvl 2 to 20.

Again, I think this is more of a Prophecy issue. But, honestly, why not let Characters who already have one level 20 character make another PvE character start at level 20. I mean, the whole "leveling" process in Guild Wars is basically training anyways.

This all boils down to "what is fun." Some people consider getting to level 20 grind, and although I don't agree, those people should have options.

After all, the idea here is to make a game that is fun for the most people possible. As long as it doesn't hurt you, what do you care if someone power levels or not?

Draxx · Aug 15, 2006, 03:08 PM // 15:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valkyrian

I think that is a great idea. I have seen some people call 15k armor "Ascended Armor". Why not have the 1.5k armor have a requirement of being lvl 20 and 15k armor have a requirement of being ascended. Problem "somewhat" solved IMO... I do have a 55 monk but I DO NOT pwr lvl people. I think it is a waste of my time and a pitty to them for not experiencing the fun of doing things yourself instead of taking the easy way out. So the power leveling issue would have to be solved as well, like patching the XP to have only those involved in battle get the it and have the aggro of enemies go for lower lvl's/lower hp (which they do sometimes IMO)

So in a nut shell, I say: Keep the dumb runners and bots, take away the gates, make lvl requirements AND mission requirements to get better armor, and patch the leveling system to not allow us 55 monks to get a lvl 2 to 20.

How in anyway would this make things better?...

Not moaning about Factions or anything... But what was wrong with how Tyria Worked?... It was Fine there are some people that wan the Max armor first, and when they know how and have the money why should they not be able to?...

Its what made GW Diff from every other online game as it does not have level caps on the Equipment and they should not change that just because people think it will remove the point of running.

If people want to run they really should be able to as it makes alot of players happy who already have characters and dont want to go through the whole game again.

... Ok this isnt the only reason people get runs and ok some people just noob there way through the game... but still why shouldnt they be able to if thats what makes them play the game?...

Anti Runners annoy me for the simple reason that they want everyone to play the game like them and im sorry but i love doing the missions... i love running areas... I like grinding and avoiding missions which is harder than doing the missions alot of the time but more than anything i like it when i have the choice to do all of them. for ME that shows alot more though put into a game because they have made each part of the game doable in different ways which requires alot more effort than putting random gates everywhere to stop people getting places.

I mean the Crystal Desert and Thunderhead Keep and such obviously are fantastic because it means you have to put in real effort to get 2 1 or 2 areas of the game. that is FINE... but the idea of gates after every mission makes the game have a much shorter life span than a game when you can do as you wish from one moment to the next.

IMO That is.

Valkyrian, in no way is this a dig at what you said, at least you put forward a constructive idea... i dont think its an awful idea, its much better than keeping the gates in the game. and by this being in the game it would still make grinding viable.

Mordakai · Aug 15, 2006, 03:16 PM // 15:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draxx

Anti Runners annoy me for the simple reason that they want everyone to play the game like them and im sorry but i love doing the missions... i love running areas... I like grinding and avoiding missions which is harder than doing the missions alot of the time but more than anything i like it when i have the choice to do all of them. for ME that shows alot more though put into a game because they have made each part of the game doable in different ways which requires alot more effort than putting random gates everywhere to stop people getting places.

Quoted for truth. Again, if it doesn't effect you, why complain about it?

Lawnmower · Aug 15, 2006, 03:28 PM // 15:28

Honestly I think its cool how people(runners) can be so creative to make money that other way. Im looking for someone right now in this moment to run me from dronkars forge to granite!

i like a good mixture of explor areas and missions... it gives a nice sense of change of pace!

johan the destroyer · Aug 15, 2006, 03:35 PM // 15:35

Personally, I think that there should be no gates and, instead, there should be a bigger world actually worth the $50 like prophecies was. Running, power-leveling, getting armor early, etc should all be allowed. That is the point of an open-ended game.

Valkyrian · Aug 15, 2006, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draxx

Valkyrian, in no way is this a dig at what you said, at least you put forward a constructive idea... i dont think its an awful idea, its much better than keeping the gates in the game. and by this being in the game it would still make grinding viable.

Thanks Draxx, and I agree with a lot of what you said as well. I myself have seen both the good and the bad that came from runners. For those of us who have experienced the full game once, and seen all the mobs and skills used, it is MUCH easier for us to have a defense to why we need an open enviornment to explore and runners to get to places we've seen before with other chars. That open enviornment is what allowed us to get through the game faster the next time with our other characters. But for those new to the game, I would advise that you play through it at least once to get a grasp of what skills are used by all professions and get a grasp of it all.

I guess that is where factions takes grasp of a "linier" enviornment, except they kinda f'ed up when the let you be a lvl 20 in 2 hours, have max armor in 3 hours, and getting your group killed in 4 hours because you lacked the game knowledge to know any better.

kimahri · Aug 15, 2006, 04:49 PM // 16:49

I agree with Mordakai, getting to areas by fighting your way felt much better then doing the missions, when I got Factions i decided that I would fight my way to HzH with my tyrian char, I fought my way to Bazaar and found the locked gate and went, nooo! Tried goig though Undercity, noo! 2 days wasted

.

But anyway for me running is sometihng fun, I do it to explore and help friends. Of course I do the missions, but I still like exploring. When exploring I don't get the "everyone have done this" feeling even though I know people have explore what I explore but it's anyway a different feeling.

I really hope Nightfall will be more open.

BTW: That about not getting proper skills when it's open, I've seen monks as far as Arborstone using flare and heal party only.

Beat_Go_Stick · Aug 15, 2006, 05:00 PM // 17:00

I'd just like to say that

1) I never had trouble finding PUGs in Prophecies unless it could be expected due to the time of day.

2) The skill level of people who weren't run in Factions was not so different than the people who accidentally skipped through Prophecies with their first character. After letting my buddy come over and play a little Guild Wars, I've come to the conclusion that the average new gamer (person who has not been playing games of any sort before Guild Wars) is just not very good. Sure, there are exceptions, but what I am saying is that it's not "running" that made people suck later in Prophecies. They would have been just as bad had they gone through the entire game.

3) I think that opening the gates but restricting the ability to do missions is a great idea. That way you could unlock a good portion of the map without being able to skip the content......explorable yet not skippable. There could, of course, be a couple places just like Prophecies that you couldn't get to without doing the missions and that would keep people from just running through the game.

4) Those of us who hate the gates are not always just wanting to skip content of the game. Sometimes we just want to explore a map without needing a defined destination. Other times we just want to cap an Elite Skill for our character. Either way, I think those closed gates ruined the game for many of us just as runners apparently ruined the game for many of you. Maybe there's a solution that can make both parties happy but it's important that you realize just locking the gates isn't it. I've seen a lot of people saying "keep them locked" and a lot of people saying "just make it the way it was". Can't we stop being selfish and think about something that would accomplish what both sides want?

NOTE: Yes, there are a few responses that do just that....but they are way too few and far between, imo.

Knightsaber Sith · Aug 15, 2006, 09:39 PM // 21:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kakumei

People complain about Kaineng City so much, and its missions ("oh god they're so boring i can't stand them prophecies missions were way better"); but come on, how many of you played through Maguuma and did all of those missions on each and every character?

Stop trying to say Prophecies' missions were so much better: they weren't.

I played through Maguuma and every mission on all four of my characters (even my assassin) without being run anywhere once. But I've also never complained about Kaineng City; I have no problem with the gates or anything as I always do all the quests along the way anyway.

Xenrath · Aug 15, 2006, 11:34 PM // 23:34

To the person who claims they wouldn't mind doing missions 12+ times - sorry but you're more likely to be the exception rather than the rule. I also noticed still not rushing to volunteer to do the mission for anyone else. In effect that proves one thing - antirunners are trying to force their world view and how it should be played on everyone else, in effect taking away options

Removing gates adds options - people can be run, if they choose to, or not. Nothing forcing either way. You clearly get more choice that way, which I'd rather have more of than less of.

Now some myths and realities:

Myth: removing running improves player abilities (or, running ruins the game)
Reality: not really, crap players will still be crap players and they'll just be carried through by groups. Factions groups have not exhibited any generally better playing abilitiy than Prophecies groups, despite being forced to do missions over and over.

Myth: gates are there to prevent PvP abuse
Reality: low level chars can still get max armour from Kaineng and go back and abuse low level arenas. It does not explain why many missions/areas after that point still need gates. 15k armour is irrelevent as it's purely aesthetic.

Myth: you find it fun and acceptable to do same missions over and over, so that negates any counterargument
Reality: you're not the only one playing it, and many people don't find it fun

Myth: gates increase the game quality/make it last longer
Reality: at least on euro servers, I can say I've noticed far less players in outposts and towns for missions. Extremely rarely, if ever, had the Prophecies groups I'd been in needed to swap districts to try to find people. That's not uncommon in Factions, where people have had to scourge districts trying to find players for the mission. Granted that may be because it's just not that great, but it could also be because people don't really feel like doing same missions over and over and over again.

I'd like to end by saying the fact is running is there because of huge demand for it. Entire guilds and alliances are dedicated to it. To simply deny that fact and try to ram it down all those players' throats just because you don't like it yourself is a pretty poor way to ignore what an awful lot of players want and prefer.

Stockholm · Aug 15, 2006, 11:51 PM // 23:51

Ok, question.
Why buy a game that has a storyline and missions if you don't want to play them?

What is at the end if you don't want to do the missions? Farming? Showing of? What is the point( I know for some it's PvP, but the rest)?
Having 6 or 8 lvl 20 toons and only 1 went through all the missions, then what do you do?
Why don't we just get a map with zones full of monsters and no missions, then A-net can serve up a new map every month for $50 and all new toons are lvl 20 fully skilled and unlocked. No need to write a stupid story line no one cares about anyway. just some outposts where you can show of the latest "Uber" armour and flash some rank, screem a few "noobs" and then what?

????
Answers? anyone?

Ashantara · Aug 16, 2006, 03:45 AM // 03:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koolman

Runners ruin the game, I hope they map is just like the Cantha map where you have to actually do quests to get places.

I, too, agree.

byul · Aug 16, 2006, 04:00 AM // 04:00

Yeah, I agree with Koolman and Ashantara. I hope they do make outposts in future chapters accessible through quests and not runs.

WasAGuest · Aug 16, 2006, 04:05 AM // 04:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kakumei

Hahaha like Prophecies wasn't guilty of that at all. Hi, Ruins of Surmia, I don't want to kill a million Devourers in a row. What, I don't have to? Oh, now I have to kill a million Charr. Wonderful!

You miss the point though. Millions of "stupid" devourers survived due to their numbers, like ants might. (Yes there were different types of "bugs", but not to the same extent as in Factions, Proph just did it "right" where Factions went a little over board.) They were annoying bugs but easily dispatched of. Minotaurs, same thing; tough dumb creatures that just beelined at you and the group. Made them seem like what they were, dumb creatures. Gave the world a life.

What I'm saying is simply from the noob isle till Shiro, each and every mob group was almost the exact same. It had melee, ranged, casters and a healer. Even the insects. So almost every single fight was the exact same over and over and over. Ruins of Surmia used as an example is like using VSquare as an example, only it's aflicted over and over and over yet never changing, ever.
In Proph, different mobs acted differently, many didn't even have healers or casters. The "bugs" in echovald... what kind of bug has a monk, ele assassin, mesmer and travels in a group back and forth? Devourers at least acted like annoying "bugs" and not like an Am Fah in a bugs skin. I got out of the city only to find the wardens (Jade Brotherhood) and "bugs" (Am Fah) still there. Headed over to the Luxon side and found Naga (Jade Brotherhood) and "fish" (Am Fah) there as well*. Nothing ever changed. Not all types of creatures should be "smart" enough to know a balanced group. Good for challenge, but really bad for enviroment and game world illusion.

* Only such a small variation of them I had to actually think about what was differnt about them.

Add to this, the locked gates and limited game world and the illusion is destroyed.

Lady Lozza · Aug 16, 2006, 07:23 AM // 07:23

Jades had mages, warriors, mesmers, and ritualists.
Am Fah had healers, necros, assassins, and rangers.

Mantids has healers, mesmers, eles, and assassins.
Wardens had warriors, mesmers, eles, ritualist, and rangers.
Dredge had healers, assassins, warriors, and rangers.

Naga had ritualists, warriors, and rangers.
Fish like species had assassins, ritualists, and monks.
Outcasts had necromancers, warriors, and assassins (I think).

So everything considered, Factions was effectively one balanced group (but not always the SAME group) after another.

Prophecies, on the other hand, went to the OTHER extreme. Most of the groups you faced were of one or two professions.

IMHO neither did it "right", because we really needed a bit of BOTH. Tke the South Shiverpeaks, there were mobs of shadows (necros), mobs of griffons (monks) and mixed and balanced groups of Stone Summit, and the random wurm thrown in for good measure. Then look at Perdition Rock, hydra walked around in a group, flesh golems walked around in a group, drakes walked around in a group. Oh and the what made it oh so very difficult was that very few of the mobs ever had a healer, so it was very difficult to kill them.

Factions wasn't a challenge, correct. I can, and I did, take one build (on my mesmer) right through to the end of the game. In Prophecies however, I changed my build often. Yet remember that most of us spent our time in Prophecies LEARNING about the game mechanics. It was harder not because we had to change our build frequently, but because we were still trying to get the most out of our characters. I KNOW I could take the same build I used in Factions through Prophecies too. It wouldn't be a challenge, but that is because I now know more about the game than I did back when I was first exploring Tyria.

Oh and presumably some of the Faction team did work on Prophecies. Remember the game was in development maybe 5(?) years. My understanding of the split was that it happened just before Prophecies was to be released. So those of you who are sitting there thinking the "original" team is responsible for Nightfall and the "infidels" are responsible for Factions may very well find themselves sorely disappointed.

Factions was (IMHO) a testing of a number of concepts. They threw them out to use in the form of a game to see how they were received. Some weren't received well, some were not, others are still in debate, and some we haven't even bothered to comment on. I doubt Anet is going to stop trying new things just because they don't want to disappoint the fans. Without change, games quickly become boring.

As for locked gates, I agree that they should exist, but not as restrictive as they are in Factions. Remember that those who got run to Drok's missed out on a very crucial cinematic at the end of the Dragon's Lair mission. If they have finished the game before, fine, but many people who get run haven't, and many of us are sick of being abused by low level characters claiming to be "leet" in missions such as Ice Caves of Sorrow when we refuse to take characters below lvl20. (For the record, I will take them but only if they are friends or guildies). Furthermore, I'm sick of people complaining that they can't get a group because they are of a lower lvl. Certainly, lvl =/= skill, but remember that until we hit gameplay, the character lvl is all you have to go on, along with chat dialogue. Kick someone because they don't seem to know what they are doing "oh I'm really leet" just doesn't cut it for me, and you get abused. My ignore list is only so long, and I'd rather leave that for real idiots as opposed to self-proclaimed "leet" players, who evidently have no idea what they are doing.

majoho · Aug 16, 2006, 07:34 AM // 07:34

^ talk about off-topic

WasAGuest · Aug 16, 2006, 12:58 PM // 12:58

No, it's on topic in reference to the limited game play in reference to the amount of various play vs mobs and locked gates. Lock gates are not Faction's only limited game play issue; other issues are the lack of content: Missions, differences in Mob structure, lack of PvE end game content, locked gates stopping exploration, faction farming effectively stopping game play for grind, and more.

I agree with your build list 100% Lady L, and that's my point (I even stated that I had to really think about what the differences were). The rits were healers with some channeling mixed in for the most part, so other than that single rit/monk mix, look at each mob type. They are built almost the exact same. A few different skills here and there and a different skin and it was the exact same fight over and over again.
Pull group, take out monk/rit first and the rest would fall in seconds. You follow that through out the entire campaign and it's a breeze. No variation. So it was the same game play from start to finish.
Now, don't get me wrong, I still enjoy playing around in Factions, but I do not enjoy doing the missions, whereas I still do the missions in Tyria as those are much more fun and one reason is the different mob build ups. The other reason is the timed missions which also limits game play in that you have to rush through it.
I'm just hoping that Nightfall ditches the locked gates and puts in something that restricts merchants/missions from working till the players have completed specific quests/missions. That leaves the game open while still allows for exploration. I'm also hoping that "dumb" mobs act like "dumb" mobs using what nature might, brute strength and numbers to survive vs seeing each and every mob group act like they were just in town doing the whole "glf X".
Purely my opinion here, obviously, but those mantids would have been much more fun if the assassin bugs would "pop" out of the ground in mass numbers. The caster "bugs" fell from the trees like the spiders did in Maguuma. If they came in groups of their own rather than in a "balanced" group, they would have seemed more like bugs rather than insect versions of Am Fah.